As I mentioned in our discussion on your post regarding Gog and Magog, I was very interested to read your reply to the missionary accusation regarding Thamud, because the argument seems to be rather recent and it seems to at least on its surface have good argumentation and hence we as Muslims must develop countermeasures. Umar reported that the people encamped along with Allahs Messenger () in the valley of Hijr, the habitations of Thamud, and they quenched their thirst from the wells thereof and kneaded the flour with it. Other later Arab migrations in Iran include the mostly cross Gulf migrations of Arabs into Hormozgan and Fars provinces from modern day eastern Saudi Arabia and other Gulf States, post 16th century. Again the burden of proof is on us that this was the case. But as well see below, archaeological and literary records place them firmly in Northern Arabia/Jordan, well after the death of Jesus (33 AD). In fact, we even know the scripts they used! The tribes of Arabia descend from either one of the two Arab ancestors, Adnan or Qahtan. He who had faith said (to Pharaoh and his company): O my people, I fear for you the likes of the day of the confederates, the likes of the fate of the people of Noah, Ad, and Thamud and those after them. According to Dr. Nehme, a senior research scientist at the French National Center for Scientific Research, the Nabateans have left us with almost no written material that would shed any light on their origins or even daily affairs. Omissions? Mostafa Badawi, in his book Ancient Prophets of Arabiasays thatthe people ofThamdlived in the 8th century BCE in the al-Hijr region and were destroyed. al-Hijr, the second most important centre of the Nabataean empire, is the title of the 15th chapter of the Quran. Verily, Thamud disbelieved in their Lord. 5. The Targum is,thou art like to an eagle that dwells in the clefts of the rock, whose habitation is in a high place;this they were proud of, thinking themselves safe, which deceived them; hence it follows: that saith in his heart, who shall bring me down to the ground? Asalam Alie Kum Later still, we find them mentioned by Ptolemy (d. 168AD), in his Geography.6. These prefixes ignored in the alphabetical ordering: Al, Bani, Banu. Al-ijr, Saudi Arabia: ancient Thamd house, This article was most recently revised and updated by. The same can be said of Median Saleh, much of the area is still hidden under sand. ___Fatwa. The Story of Adam (The First Man) _ part 1. Prophet Muhammad () descended from Ismail ( ), http://www.imgrum.org/media/1483126817820752683_724804649, http://saudi-archaeology.com/sites/madain-saleh/, The blind companion and killing of the concubine, Islamic identity of Rm (Rome) and Romans II, The Benefits of the Presence of Ambiguous Verses in the Quran, Islamic Stance on Astrology and its related Sciences. And As-Saihah (torment - awful cry) overtook the wrong-doers, so they lay (dead), prostrate in their homes, As if they had never lived there. They lived in houses carved into the surface of the earth. The Thamud were Arabs, and the Bible tells us in Genesis 28:9 that Esauthe father of the Edomites married into the Ishmaelites, so that makes Edomites half Arabs also. [2] The Thamud are not specially connected to the Thamudic scripts, an aggregate term for understudied writing systems of Ancient Arabia. We have no concrete evidence that Nabateans were destroyed. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); The Quranic tribes of Aad and Thamud a historical perspective. Jumping the gun, 2. Can you explain how 89:9 is in the past tense (used to carve) because the AL (the) before the mountions bit makes it sound like in the preasent like specific if you know what I mean jazzakkallah 3 Southern Europe. As for the wells, studies have shown that the Nabateans were experts in the field of irrigation and a lot of wells was attributed to them. Akkadians are from Prophet Hud pbuh. And of course, they were also polytheists. Saudi Arabia, in terms of archaeology, is really untouched. The Quran and Sunnah do not identify any specific existing ruins as belonging to the first ancient tribe of Thamud, although some Muslim historians and popular folklore have done so. But the fact that they spitefully killed an animal that had done them no harm and for no good reason is proof and a sign of their evil. SUHIH MUSLIM _ THE BOOK OF HEART-MELTING TRADITION 40 Hadith Qudsi_ Al Nawawi's Forty Hadith. Theyre mentioned in 25:38 and 50:12. Also, 28:40 is referring to Pharaoh and the verse tells us to BEHOLD how Allah SWT dealt with him without us being present to see it. Some people think petra was thamud do you think so jazzakkallah, But the main question for me is the first one number 1 the rest are just side questions but number 1 is the main one for me what I would like a detailed response the rest are more of yes or no qustions jazzakkallah sorry to keep bothering you, But I do agree with your article its just getting more information thats all jazzakkallah so I know how to answer this question jazzakkallah, This is part of qustion 4 do you think 27:52 is talking about there dwellings in the mountions or on the plains or both and does 27:52 mean there dwellings collapsed fallen because if yes 89:9 makes it sound like it is standing that there are more of the buildings showing then just partially but more showing of the buildings so how do we explain this jazzakkallah, Sorry for them being spaced out just put them together but 8. also if there buildings were very big there had to be more left of the buildings remains in the time of the prophet then just partially shouldnt there or not because if they were big there should of been more left or not do you think jazzakkallah how would we explain this jazzakkallah but like I said question 1 is the main one, 9. 6. What the Prophet () and the Sahaba went through during Tabuk was overall the joint place of Thamud and Nabateans and more specifically the exact well from where the she-camel drank. This is the temple that was built by the tribal unit of Thamd, the leaders of their unit, so that it might be established by their hands and be their place of veneration forever with the support of Antistius Adventus, the governor. Allah mentions how there were actually nine families that pretty much ran everything in this society. Under the Umayyad Caliphate, Arabic became the official language in Egypt rather than Coptic or Greek. The Edomites can also be a separate nation and through the passage time they shared history, tradition, and custom with the remnants of the Thamud. 10.can al hijr be somewhere else like al ula They were scientists and technicians and craftsmen, so they wanted conclusive proof. SSH and Password-less communication using SSH, Basics of Cryptography and Digital Signature, The Quranic tribes of 'Aad and Thamud - a historical perspective, Lenin khuda ke huzoor mein: A simplified commentary, Q 7:74 mentions Thamud as building houses out of mountains, while Q 54:31 confirms that they were destroyed by a shriek. This is because Prophet Ismail (AS) is often considered to be the father of Arabs just like Prophet Ishaaq/Isaac (AS) is considered to be the father of the Israelites. (41:13) During the time of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), the Quraish would debate with him and ask him all sorts of questions. After all, camels were and still are pretty common in that part of the world. 11. Im also inclined to believe that these nine families were the direct descendents of those believers who escaped the land of the Aad with Hud. Large numbers of Bani Rasheed are also found on the Arabian Peninsula. 3. Thank you for answering my questions thanks I just have 2 more questions then Im done then ill leave it jazzakkallah [11] An important exception is a temple at al-Ruwfa in northwestern Saudi Arabia, built by the Thamd themselves in the 160s CE. It is likely, then, that most of the artifacts in this region belonged to the many generations of those who came after them as the Quran mentions. Ive discussed this more below. If we try to discuss the lineage of the Arabs well be here forever. Qur'an and Hadith on Thamud and their Dwellings Abu Rahma / March 22, 2016 It is argued that the Qur'an and the Prophet () made an error in history and facts [1]. And they used to carve from the mountains, houses, feeling secure. It is argued that the Quran and the Prophet () made an error in history and facts[1]. Thus, if the Quran is in error about the identities of whoever carved out the structures in Madian Salehor wherever else the Thamud livedthe Bible is also in error when it claims a pre-Nabatean people carved out structures in the mountains of Edom. When Allah sent their brother Salih (AS) to advise them of the true faith, they rejected him just like the Aad had rejected Hud before. Or just left relics in land 6. But the Thamud cut its hamstring or otherwise wounded it. So away with Thamud! His people came after Ad, and they were known as Thamud. We hardly know anything about the Nabateans aside of their nomadic life-style, which is not consonant with building these incredible structures. Trudy Ring, Noelle Watson, Paul Schellinger. So what we see are Hellenistic structures built by Midianites taken over from the Thamud. Al-ijr is now a vast plain, interspersed with hills into which what looks from the outside like houses or tombs have been carved. When they cut the hamstring of a female camel that God had sent down for them, despite the prophet's warnings, they were annihilated, except for Salih and his followers. The Prophet ()s custom was always to point out to his Companions the geographical locations and landmarks connected with previous Divine Envoys. Thamd, in ancient Arabia, tribe or group of tribes known to be extant from the 8th century bce to the 5th century ce. Ruins of Aad and Thamood existed at time of Prophet sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam Assalaamu alaykum I was wondering does verse 2938 of the Quran mean that the houses of Aad and Thamud are still standing and that we can see them If Aad were destroyed there is nothing left of Aad apart from their land so their houses have fallen down and if they were not standing in Prophet Muhammads sallallaahu . Heres how Allah describes their punishment. The absence of evidence here is no evidence of absence. Thamud were destroyed Trying to make sense of this mad, mad world, And We certainly sent into every nation a messenger, [saying], Worship Allah and avoid Taghut. And among them were those whom Allah guided, and among them were those upon whom error was [deservedly] decreed. [28] A large Arab migration to Mesopotamia followed the Muslim conquest of Mesopotamia in 634, which saw an increase in the culture and ideals of the Bedouins in the region. They are aws and athiri in origin with element of arphaxad The Christians are claiming that the Qurans statement about Thamud carving structures in the hills and mountains is demonstrably false as the structures are built not by the Thamud but by the Nabateans, who came much later. If the Nabateans carved out the structures on the hills and mountains of Petra and Median Saleh, as the Christians allege, then both the Quran and the Bible are in error, which I dont agree with. Because were left with no records which can help in our archeological inquiry, even dating the structures becomes a difficult, and perhaps, an impossible task. [ Qur'an and Suhih Sunnah - Islamic Knowledge ]. Eventually, they demanded proof for what Salih was saying. Missionaries and polemicists seize upon the error of this folklore as an alleged example of the error of the Quran, but in reality, this is not the case. The word atharan or assar as loosely written in Urdu literally means effects or reactions or remnants left behind as an escape of a crime scene where clues or signs point to. Previous ones may have fallen and replaced by Nabateans but during the time of the Prophet (), there did remain buildings of Thamud and who knows, they might still be there today but undiscovered by archaeologists. According to Saudi-archeology website, an academic website aimed at archiving the rock images and providing archeological information on them, the structure may have been used for holding sacred feasts. We have a good perspective of the size of these supposed tombs in this picture, as the faade has been destroyed. They conquered other nations and treated them harshly. Shaitan (Satan) made their deeds fair-seeming to them, and turned them away from the (Right) Path, though they were intelligent. We should look at the original Arabic for word though to fully understand. Thamud scripts and finds are noted in the area as well as possible signs of the ancient people before Thamud. This implies that the carvings in Madain Saleh (which in fact date to the first century CE) are not from the Thamudians, but rather their successors many centuries later in the same area. I am also writing an text on this that I inshaAllah will put up online. Are you telling us to change our religion from our fathers relgion? Hud tried to reason with his people by reminding them of the many favors Allah had given them. Chaldeans formed when actual tribe of thamud perished so you are not correct . You have no god other than Him. It mentions the elusive city of Iram (mentioned in the above Quranic verse), and reads May Abdallhi son of Atmo be remembered for all time before Allt, the goddess of Iram.. They also fell to idol-worshipping. 1. Meaning ibn kathir thought these tombs were built by thamud as well but got it wrong, I agree also Im of the opion the hadith witch says dont enter the dwellings I think the prophet said dont enter the lands not houses because there are only 4 hadith witch mention that and 3 of them doesnt have the arabic word for dwelling there any way thats why dwelling is in brackets also the one hadith what does mention dwelling in arabic misken can mean land any way because it is used in the quran and there are some places it is translated as dwelling places not literally houses so Im of the opion the prophet was saying dont enter the land and even if it did mean houses it could be that there were a few bricks in the valley plain there and that is what he meant because if it was the same area then that is why some people think the prophet meant the nabateans buildings jazzakkallah also in verse 40:21 out of the 8 theorys I have put down witch one do you think is the right one what does atharan mean to you jazzakkallah because if it means remains then it just means there were just a bit of large bricks broken pillars there witch just shows they were better than the Arabs jazzakkallah what could be what the prophet meant dont enter the fallen down houses what ever left of there builds like a few large bricks and broken pillars, Also those 4 hadith dont mention thamud by name in just says the land of al hijr or the people of al hijr or region of al hijr but never thamud but yes I agree with the well but there are Wells all over the region of al hijr like al ula and such also al hijr might be anywhere with a rocky area like yemon or jordan also there is a place in oman called al hijr so could be anywhere like yemon also there is a place called thamud in yemon near where ad lived near hadramawt so you see what I mean could be there, Assalam alikum I was just wondering how do we explain 28:58 witch nation is it talking about and is it talking in past or present tense because this verse sounds like its talking about thamud those buildings witch were built by nabtions. Have not read their own bibles. According to Arab traditions, tribes are divided into different divisions called Arab skulls ( ), which is a term given to a group of tribes of the Arabian Peninsula, which are described in the traditional custom of strength, abundance, victory, and honor. The Nabataeans were nomadic Arabs who moved into territory vacated by the Edomites Semites who settled the region centuries before them. Suppose if Nuh ( ) came 40,000 years ago or even 100,000 years ago and the few hundred or a few thousand people were destroyed by the flood, then it would not be difficult to believe that human population reached in millions, further subdividing into nations, communities, and tribes, after thousands of years. Claim that the Edomites are not Thamud thus the verses are irrelevant. When some one has a keen desire to understand logically or has questions, there is nothing wrong I think. The Aad and the Thamud are two nations mentioned several times in the Quran. [15] A major source of income for these people was the taxation of caravans, and tributes collected from non-Bedouin settlements. They were successors to the People of Noah. 3 The pride of your heart has deceived you, [22], A poem attributed to Umayya ibn Abi--alt, a Meccan contemporary of Muhammad who refused to accept Islam, contains a reference to the camel and Thamud. I guess it can be said that the Nabataeans can be considered one of the nations succeeding the people of Thamud. In Umayya's account, there is no Salih. If they were made for dead bodies, it stands to reason that we should find at least one dead body in them. However, inside most of them is only a small room about three to four square meters in size. But the shriek seized them at early morning. Its almost impossible to know for certain that the many tombs with Nabatean inscriptions are indeed constructed by them, especially when we know that only 15% of the area in Petra has been excavated and examined. The structures were not built by the Thamud but by the Nabateans. Therefore, the Adnanites are descendants of Abraham. Seeking blessings from relics of the righteous? And perhaps, just like the Aad before them, they forgot the faith of Tawheed practiced by their ancestors and slipped into worhsiping idols. The Edomites were proud of their wealth and riches, which they had by robberies amassed together; and of their military skill and courage, and of their friends and allies; and especially of their fortresses and fastnesses, both natural and artificial; and therefore thought themselves secure, and that no enemy could come at them to hurt them, and this deceived them: thou that dwellest in the clefts of the rock; The earliest abundant references for Thamud in our literary sources are in relation to the Nabataean empire a large Arab kingdom encompassing parts of modern Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia (including the Hejaz, the area containing Mecca and Medina) and even parts of Sinai. Their early inscriptions were in Aramaic, but gradually switched to Arabic, and since they had writing, it was they who made the first inscriptions in Arabic. Traditionally, both the prophets Hud and Saleh and by implication, their respective communities Aad andThamud, are thought to have existed generations before Abraham, placing them well before 1300 BC (at the very least1). It is generic for multitude of civilizations If anyone has evidence of at least one dead body having been found in the recesses, Im open to change my mind. 'Ad and Thamud are closely connected by both Islamic and pre-Islamic sources. [27], The migration of Arab tribes to Mesopotamia began in the seventh century, and by the late 20th century constituted about three quarters of the population of Iraq. Ad and Thamud were two great civilizations destroyed by God due to their excessive wickedness. We have to be open to the idea that a person living thousands of years ago will have a different concept of a place of dwelling than we, in the 21st century, do. The Akkadians are the Arameans who are the Chaldeans who are the Nabateans who absorbed The Amorites. The Ayah is general [And how many a city have I (Allah) destroyed]? However this would not explain why the Prophet () referred to the houses as Thamuds dwellings. 41.13-18 Kathir - Ibn Al Kathir. To Aad was sent the prophet Hud; to Thamud, Saleh, and together with another mysterious figure, Shoaib, they constitute the only three pre-Islamic prophets mentioned in the Quran that have an exclusive Arab provenance. Year_ May , 2021 -. They said, "li, We used to have such great hope in you. How destroyed do you think the buildings were and does the hadith mean that there inside were not destroyed or could of they been destroyed as well or not. Several broken columns in the ruins of Wadi Ramm have been interpreted as the lofty pillars associated with Iram in the Quran. The title People of al-Hijr was, therefore, that of Nabateans who came much late in history and their period overlapped with Thamud-II, the remnants of Thamud-I, the subject of Quran.[5]. Marcus Aurelius Anthoninus and Lucius Aurelius Verus, who are the conquerors of the Armenians. Had the Prophet () thought that the rock carved structures in al-Hijr were those of Thamd, he would have pointed them out. The Aad before them were pretty decent architects and built some fairly magnificent castles. As for now, we dont know. And take for yourselves palaces and fortresses that you may abide eternally?Chapter 26, Verses 128 129. By not on the surface, I mean that they did not exist like a proper city or open to any passer by and were deep inside some unvisited territory. Is there a possibility that these remaining tombs (around 1400 years back, were more in number and had dwellings as well) were inscribed upon by the Nabataeans as has already been proposed and I came across a while back, Assalam alikum what about 40:21 and 40:82 if someone could explain these verses, Walikum Assalam, In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful. Abul Ala Maududi. What? It is possible that the dwelling areas are no longer visible in the last 1400 years as these are just small rooms and tombs with no space inside. (LogOut/ An envoy was sent to the nations to say, Assalamualaikum the ruined abandoned wells may possible be referring to those belonging to the People of Ar-Rass (i.e. I feel there may be some misconception about how to view Quran. There has come to you clear evidence from your Lord. Thus, Nabataeans later reused the rocks and made them to graves. 5. "Genetic Evidence for the Expansion of Arabian Tribes into the Southern Levant and North Africa", "Hidden History, Secret Present: The Origins and Status of African Palestinians", "Symbolism on the Syrian Standing Caliph Copper Coins", "A Detailed Account of the History of Arabs Before Islam", " ", " - Abd al-Fatt Miqlad Ghunaym, - Google", " - Thmir Abd al-asan mir - Google", "204 - - - ", http://islamport.com/w/nsb/Web/489/27.htm, The dwelling places and wanderings of the Arabian tribes, by Heinrich Ferdinand Wstenfeld, in German, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tribes_of_Arabia&oldid=1137459459, Wikipedia articles incorporating a citation from the 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica with Wikisource reference, Short description is different from Wikidata, Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License 3.0, This page was last edited on 4 February 2023, at 19:44. The Thamud were scientists. If accurate, the Prophet Salih (s) would have lived many generations and perhaps centuries before Moses. [5], A surviving letter from Nabonidus, a sixth-century BC king of Babylon, includes an order that a "Te-mu-da-a Ar-ba-a-a", apparently "Thamudi Arab", be given several talents of silver. They also could have written inscriptions on the many structures that already existed. p.190. There are countless artists, pundits, and celebrities who mock Allah, His Messenger (pbuh), and Islam. According to the Islamic tradition, the Thamd were warned by the prophet li to worship Allh, but the Thamd stubbornly refused and as a result were annihilated either by a thunderbolt or by an earthquake. "Thamud are an ancient Arabia, tribe or group of tribes that seem to have been prominent from about the 4th century BC to the first half of the 7th century AD. From either one of the Nabataean empire, is really untouched pretty decent architects built. 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